December 14, 2023

Episode 018:

From TikTok to Checking Accounts –

Gen Z & Banking

In this episode, Wyatt Licht, a leading figure in banking technology, discusses the transformative changes occurring in the banking industry due to the shift towards social finance, driven by younger generations. They explore how FinTech can revolutionize banking services, strategies for attracting a younger deposit base, and the future of personal and business banking. The episode also tackles the impact of digitization, the importance of competitive products, the role of physical branches, and the challenges faced by community banks.

Episode 018: From TikTok to Checking Accounts: Gen Z & Banking

by Banking On Disruption Podcast

Show Notes

Is your bank future-ready?

Find out how the banking industry is gearing up to meet the demands of the younger generation in this insightful conversation with banking technology expert, Wyatt Licht. Discover how Gen Z customers are shifting the traditional banking landscape, seeking financial advice from influencers and social media platforms, and what it means for your financial institution. We’ll also illuminate how mobile banking and digital presence have evolved from differentiators to table stakes in today’s market.

Our conversation doesn’t end there; together with Wyatt, we’ll weigh in on the importance of face-to-face interactions, the role of branches, and their place in the future. So, gear up and come along as we navigate the ever-evolving landscape of banking and explore the strategies that banks need to embrace to stay ahead.

After the interview in our quick-takes segment Josh, Eric, and I explore if 2023 marks the end of the “Cushy Tech Job,” what it means if Google’s Gemini demo video was at least somewhat fabricated, and how (& why) now is the time for banks to embrace radical change.

Links & Mentions


Wyatt Licht

Wyatt Licht

Banking Transformation Thought Leader

Wyatt Steele Licht discovered his passion for financial technology in college after being introduced to crowd funding. He has since focused his energy on trying to marry traditional financial services with innovation as a strategic partner manager, solution consultant, and sales executive in the banking and mortgage technology space. Currently, he is most interested generational trends in how users interact with their finances and the opportunity to create personalized services for specific demographics.

When he’s not in front of a computer or on an airplane, Wyatt is an avid skier, SCUBA diver, real estate investor, and fun uncle.

Full Transcript

00:03 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
You’ve got the rise of I guess you could call it, social finance, and this is in a lot of industries right now. You’ve got the influencer trends or the YouTuber trends, and you’ll find that many younger consumers are getting most of their financial advice from finance influencers, from people doing YouTube videos or people on TikTok. And I don’t want to say that all of this information, this democratization of financial information, is a bad thing, and I think a lot of it probably is good advice, even if it’s not coming from the figures we would traditionally think of as experts. But at the end of the day, it does disintermediate the relationship between the bank or the trusted financial advisor or the family tax planner and a younger consumer.

00:56 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Hello and welcome to another episode of Banking on Disruption. I’m Fred Cadena. Today, we are joined by my friend, Wyatt Licht, a thought leader and frequent speaker on banking technology, especially as it relates to attracting millennial and Gen Z customers and the impact of generational differences on customer expectations. Wyatt shares his recommended strategies for banks to attract and serve younger, tech savvy customers effectively. After the interview and our quick take segment, josh, eric and I explore if 2023 marks the end of the cushy tech job, what it means, now that we’ve learned that Google’s Gemini demo video was at least somewhat faked, and how and why now is the time for banks to embrace radical change. While you’re listening to this podcast, why not take a moment to follow us on LinkedIn at the Banking on Disruption podcast, and on Instagram at Banking on Disruption? Now sit back and strap in, because our show is coming to you right now, and welcome back On this episode. I’m excited to welcome my good friend, Wyatt Licht.

Wyatt discovered his passion for financial technology in college after being introduced to crowdfunding. He since focuses energy on trying to marry traditional financial services with innovation as a strategic partner manager, solution consultant and sales executive in the banking and mortgage industry. Currently, he is the most interested in generational trends and how users interact with their finances and the opportunity to create personalized services for specific demographics. I think the reason I initially reached out to Wyatt to have you on the podcast was because of a presentation that you gave earlier this year, specifically around how banks can attract younger depositors, so I definitely want to get in on that conversation. I also should mention that, similar to me, you’re also a big scuba diver, so maybe we’ll have time to get into that towards the end of the conversation. But welcome to the podcast, Wyatt, glad you could make it.

03:04 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Thank you, Fred. It’s really great to be here and great to catch up with you. Thanks for having me on.

03:08 – Fred Cadena (Host)
You bet I mean, why don’t we start out there? I think that right now, probably most banks would be happy to get any deposits. Certainly the lower cost the better, but obviously just thinking about both long-term growth and also just retaining assets during what is going to be a big generational wealth transfer. I know a lot of the banks that I talked to think a lot about how do we build better relationships, attract younger customers to begin with and then build better relationships with them during those early years. So I’ll just kick it off that way how do you talk to banks about attracting those younger depositors?

03:56 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Yeah, I’m glad we’re starting here because I think this to me, is probably the single greatest macro trend facing the banking industry right now. There’s a lot of other things that are theoretically going to be more short-lived a lot of risk built up in the commercial real estate space, for example but we’ll get through that. But a total shift in the population and where the population is keeping and interacting with their money is not a blip, not a cyclical factor. The banks right now are getting hit with that from both sides. In the first case, their customers are aging.

I work with primarily community and regional banks. They have a presence in one state, maybe the surrounding states, and they could be anywhere from a billion to 10 billion in assets, and that segment of banks have an older customer base than any of their peers. Their peers are their up-market competitors, so larger national banks or even credit unions of a similar size tend to have a younger customer footprint. Now these customers are great for these banks now because they’ve been incredibly loyal. They know the folks in the branches and I don’t want to diminish the value of those personal relationships.

But as a banking leader, I think that it’s important that they also acknowledge the incredible risk that’s represented by this aging population, because many of them stop earning regular income. They stop earning regular income, they start to pay off major debts in their homes and then, as you alluded to the huge generational transfer of wealth that’s set to occur in the coming years Some economists estimating this could be anywhere from 60 to 120 trillion dollars that will change hands from the silent generation and the boomer generation directly to their descendants. Now, what’s interesting about this in the context of the community banking is community banks have not done a great job at capturing the business of those people’s children. So, at the same as they are losing deposits from their existing strongholds, they’re also failing to capture the recipients of those deposits, so people from millennials to Gen Z and soon to be Gen Alpha. Those customers are increasingly opening accounts with neobanks, with Thintex and other digital challengers.

06:18 – Fred Cadena (Host)
So why is that? Why is there more attraction by those demographic groups to neobanks and other challengers than the more traditional banks?

06:29 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
I would say the most obvious is the advent of mobile banking. Most younger consumers today are going to prefer to interact with their finances on their phone, or if not their phone then on a desktop computer, and especially in community banking. Many of them are still behind just on having an online presence that’s accessible through the web, let alone something that’s convenient and engaging to use on a phone.

06:55 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Any other factors that you think are top of mind beyond the digital banking access?

07:00 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Yeah, there’s been a great breakup of the consumer’s financial life, where a bank used to maybe serve every aspect, or close to every aspect, of your financial life. You had your checking account there, your savings account, you had someone to give you advice with budgeting, you had someone to offer you a student loan, and those services would grow with you over time. So you might open up your first savings account as a very young child, when you get your first birthday money, and at every new phase of your life and the evolution of your financial needs, the bank was there to offer something new. If you look at that same journey for today’s high school graduate, they’ve probably already maybe they still had that anchor savings account or the checking account where they got their debit card to start paying for gas but sprinkled along throughout there. Maybe they’re probably spending a lot more time on Coinbase trading Bitcoin or Robinhood or using the likes of Mintcom or Credit Karma, or maybe that’s not the case for high school students, but for young adults.

So now they’re being pulled in many directions by these different financial services providers and each of those is competing with the banks for eyeballs, for relationship time, for trust, and then, on top of that, you’ve got the rise of I guess you could call it social finance, and this is in a lot of industries right now. You got the influencer trends or the YouTuber trends, and you find that many younger consumers are getting most of their financial advice from finance influencers, from people doing YouTube videos or people on TikTok. And I don’t want to say that all of this information, all of this information, this democratization of financial information, is a bad thing. I think a lot of it probably is good advice, even if it’s not coming from the figures we would traditionally think of as experts. But at the end of the day, it does disintermediate the relationship between between the bank or the trusted financial advisor or the family tax planner and a younger consumer.

08:56 – Fred Cadena (Host)
So I think you’ve done a great job of framing some of the challenges. What are some of the solutions?

09:03 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Well, I think first and foremost and I’m going to sound like I’m beating a dead horse here at some point, but it’s bringing banking online into the cloud and onto mobile. For most folks in my demographic I’m kind of on that borderline between millennial and Gen Z. The idea of going into a bank branch on a regular basis just to perform the daily tasks like pulling out cash, things like that I don’t even pull out cash, so that’s just a non-starter for me, and I think once you’ve opened the door to being on mobile, then the world is almost I don’t want to say the world’s your oyster, because these are big, complex problems oftentimes, or complex projects rather oftentimes. But there’s so many things that banks can do to access the world of FinTech. It’s not always when us first them.

When it comes to FinTech, there’s many kinds of partnerships that banks can seek out that can allow them to differentiate themselves or take a lot of services that their potential younger customers are already interacting with and integrating them in a thoughtful way so that they’re accessible through a single point of access and the benefit to the consumer. There is not only a single point of access, but it’s a single point of access with a trusted, regulated body where you know you can call and get some good advice, or where you know that they can’t just cut and run or be acquired overnight and take your money with them. So I think that it shouldn’t be underestimated the value that the stability of the traditional banking space can bring, kind of aggregating the host of FinTech services that are out there.

10:37 – Fred Cadena (Host)
No, I think that makes a lot of sense. Go back to your first point, and again, I don’t necessarily pay as close attention to digital banking, mobile banking offerings, I think, on a day-to-day basis as you do, but I guess my experience has been less with banks that don’t have an offering at all and more with banks that have an offering that is left wanting. They have online, they’ve got a mobile app, it’s just not very feature-rich. Which are you seeing more of the latter, of banks that really don’t have any digital offering at all, or are you really more concerned with mobile experiences and online experiences that don’t measure up?

11:25 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
I think you’ll see a little of both and in my experience there’s been a great discrepancy in that amount of progress in the digital experience. Let me restate that. Let’s say, in my experience there’s been a great difference in the amount of progress depending on the market segment, depending on even some geographic factors like the part of the country. But I think what you’re saying is true. It’s not that there’s zero mobile offering, but for a lot of the banks that I work with, they’ve put some mobile offering in place and it’s either so bad from an experience standpoint or it’s opened the musk up to so much broad risk because they’ve basically given the entire globe a window into how to try and do business with them without thinking about having some kind of automatic screening that they’ve either shut those online offerings down completely or they’ve buried them so effectively in their website that it’s not actually giving them an opportunity to serve their customers. And I think there’s a little bit of a chicken or the egg component to this for these banks in the decision making. They’re like well, I put this online offering in place and it didn’t give me any of the benefits that going online was supposed to offer me in terms of organic customer growth or debauched acquisition. It’s actually cost me a lot of money because I’ve introduced all of this fraud and the operational burden that comes with screening that fraud, and so it’s then hard to take that project and take it to the board and say we need to invest more in this because it’s not.

Those investment dollars aren’t going to. Those investment dollars spent on kind of trying to promote the same product aren’t going to produce a better result. A lot of that has to do with a platform that really thoughtfully manages the fraud component automatically, using the AI options that are available in the market today, or taking your product offering and making sure that it encompasses the products that are really interesting to the consumer today. And that’s been really tough in this, in this rate environment, because things have changed so fast. I was in the digital mortgage technology space right at the beginning of 2020. And there was this flood of putting mortgage applications online or really, at that point, enhancing existing mortgage experiences to deal with the influx of buyers. Well, now all those investments are seeming like they were a little too late because the environment switched completely to deposit acquisition and now folks are realizing that their technology is lagging behind in that space. So yeah, it’s a moving target.

14:00 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Yeah, I mean it always is a moving target. I would be very curious. You know, I think that you know the theoretical conversation about like going back to the board and having to talk about not getting the ROI, not getting organic deposit growth. I mean, I don’t know that. I believe today anyway, maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, bankers went in with the we’re investing to be ahead. I think today it’s table stakes. It’s like 100 years ago you didn’t build a branch because you wanted to, you know, have organic growth. You built a branch because you needed a place for people to transact. I think that you know the equivalent today is a mobile and a digital presence. I can’t imagine that there’s a lot of bankers out there that are using it as a differentiator as much as this is just the table stakes. We need to stay competitive.

14:58 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
I think that’s probably really fair and if you think of the mobile app, like the branch, it’s just a way to transact or just like a channel to distribute your services and maybe there’s an element there of finding out what that thing is that makes you unique.

It’s not going to be the technology, but you have to have the technology in place if you’re to educate people about what does make you unique. A lot of these smaller, like regional banks that I work with have incredibly competitive CD rates, for example, much better than you’ll get at any national bank Totally, and those kinds of products are nationally marketable. No one you know if you can make it so that someone doesn’t have to come into a branch to open a CD with you and your CD rate is, you know, 100 basis points higher than Chase or Wells Fargo and you get the mobile app in place, like we can take this show on the road in a really scalable manner and that can be an incredibly profitable like an incredibly effective way of gaining new deposits. But most of these folks don’t even have the tools or have the operational capabilities that if they were to launch a national or regional marketing campaign that they could keep up with the influx of business.

16:11 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Well, that’s a whole. You’re talking more from a middle and back office perspective.

16:16 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Both Say they don’t A they don’t have the means right now to distribute that product to a broader geographic area. Or even if they were to somehow distribute that product to a broader geographic area, they couldn’t fulfill on it in a way that would produce a quality customer experience.

16:35 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Makes sense. So what’s the answer then? What’s the, what’s the easy button to get them from where they are today, to being able to take advantage of all of this potential scale?

16:47 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Well, I’m not here to talk my own book on my employer right now, but it’s funny that you said easy button, because we have a whole talk track around being the easy button for banks in digital transformation.

I think, first and foremost, banks need to broaden their horizon, especially smaller banks need to broaden their horizon, get out of just being stuck in sort of the ecosystem of technology providers from or excuse me technology tools that are provided by their core banking system. So having a having a front end that’s more than just a web form and then making sure that the data that’s being brought in through whatever externally facing interface you have is actually something you can act on. Like if it’s just landing in a spreadsheet, then you’re still back to. You’re still back to fulfilling that manually, but you’ve just digitized a paper process. So thinking about having platforms in place that allow for automation, that allow for easy integration to additional tools I’ve mentioned the fraud component already, but being able to automate, automate low value tasks like initiating a credit poll or initiating a credit poll or pulling a flood certification I guess these are more lending focused, but think about turning people into customer service representatives, as opposed to someone who pushes a button every time a file crosses their desk.

18:03 – Fred Cadena (Host)
I think that makes a lot of sense. So, assuming that the technology is in place, let’s talk a little bit about the product side. You mentioned already some of the banks that you work with have really great rates in CD. Cds are a very traditional banking product. I think one of the things that we see a lot from a fintech perspective is an evolution on banking products and kind of a new way of packaging both deposit and loan offerings. What should banks be thinking about if they’re looking to attract younger customers, younger depositors?

18:42 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
from a product development standpoint, yeah, that’s a really interesting question. I think we’re going to see more and more creativity in this area, so people are going to come up with better ideas than I have, for now at least, but I can talk about a few that I’ve seen in the market, and it’s not always just about the financial product. I think there’s a big packaging component to this as well. Something that comes to mind immediately is the digital family wallet and giving. I guess let me back up.

Previously, you might have had your children’s savings account or your college student’s checking account, and a lot of banks had these products, and I think in most cases they were kind of loss leaders and they were just considered something you had to have in place in order to hopefully capture a young person’s business and make them a customer for life.

I think the next iteration of that are much more value-added services that can serve the purpose of creating customer loyalty, but also be something that are useful enough and have enough utility that you can charge higher fees for them, and they can actually be something that becomes profitable. Digital family wallets are a great example of this, because they appeal to children. They appeal to parents with children. They allow you to diversify your product set with the parents. So not only are you more likely to get the kids’ business later on, you’re more likely to retain the parents’ business long term. And when people see how useful these tools are, how much they make it easier to pay out for chores, to help with allowances, to teach their kids about responsible finance, they don’t feel as strange about paying a fee for those services.

20:28 – Fred Cadena (Host)
And I think there’s a lot of examples Traditional I think maybe a lot of our listeners aren’t familiar with the digital family wallet concept, so can you talk a little bit about what that product is?

20:39 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely so. Essentially, if anyone’s used Apple Pay or another personal digital wallet, this is the concept is to extend the capabilities of that tool so you’re managing multiple people within that wallet. Most of the family, of the family tailored wallets will also have components for tracking a dependence, tracking your children’s spending, managing transfer of money between family members. So you can kind of think of like displacing Venmo or keeping that Venmo peer to peer payments aspect housed within a single interface. And then most also include some kind of financial education components and some are even adding automated savings accounts or the ability to just bucket different accounts to teach children about budgeting and managing money for different aspects of their lives or different goals.

21:33 – Fred Cadena (Host)
So I’m very curious and my son now is 19. I’m trying to get him off the payroll. But how does that work like effectively day to day in making sure that kids aren’t necessarily spending beyond limits or kind of taking advantage of the broader family asset base? Maybe put it that way?

21:58 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Yeah, most of these wallets will have pools in place where you can create preset spending limits and alerts and monitoring. So if your son suddenly goes way over his weekly gas budget, you’re going to get a notification to your phone and you can put out a phone call right away, as opposed to previously.

You know if you had a handful of kids and you may not notice until the next statement comes around that one of the credit cards is way, that one of the credit cards is way over where it should be. So there’s a lot more real time feedback in most of these, in most of these applications.

22:33 – Fred Cadena (Host)
No that’s great. What, what other strategies have you seen work?

22:36 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
I think another interesting approach, or maybe a set of many approaches, is just being really empathetic to the needs customers of different, of different demographics or of different backgrounds, and developing niche services specifically to suit them and being really tailored and personalized in the way that you then market to those demographics. So we’ve worked with customers who are spinning up separate, separate digitally based brands to serve high debt, high income individuals, primarily medical professionals, and this is, I think, another example of an iteration, of an iteration of a traditional finance approach just amplified through technology. It was not uncommon already for, you know, banks to have special loan, home loan offerings for medical professionals whose debt to income ratio is a lot different than, you know, your typical, your typical consumer. Well, now, instead of just having a single loan product or a set of a couple loan products, we might have an entire brand with loan products and positive offerings and maybe even small business account offerings tied into that for someone who, say, owns their own dental practice. And I think we’re going to see more and more brands, even probably some mini brands owned by single entities, that target different, that target different segments like that, and those niche offerings may not be as big as entire brands.

I think there are, you know, unique finance problems that were hard to address at scale before. An example that comes to mind is a company called support pay, and support pay started out as a payments platform designed for divorced parents who were managing who were managing finances and expenses between you know, for their children that they had shared custody of seemingly a really narrow and unique use case, but actually we know that there’s a lot of divorces that happen around the country and and so there should be specific products designed that now support pay is going into, now expanding into helping families manage joint payments for children who are splitting the care of elderly grandparents. That is a, I think, a great natural progression of their product and speaks to the fact that speaks to the fact that you know, given given the time and attention, there’s many diverse services that are going to attract, going to attract some individuals to one bank versus another.

25:02 – Fred Cadena (Host)
So it sounds like it’s important for a bank to try to figure out where their particular strengths are, where they could potentially build a niche, whether or not it’s part of their their core brand, or if they spin up a separate brand to maybe focus in on that niche. That should be part of a bank strategy to diversify and grow their deposit base.

25:27 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
I absolutely think so. I think, with the pace, technological change to try and be all things to all people in the banking industry today, unless you know, unless you’ve got chase style budget and your own startup accelerator, is going to be a very, a very tough, a very tough and expensive undertaking.

25:46 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Absolutely so. One of the things you mentioned in your answer, part of that was rolling in I think the example you used was for a dental practitioner rolling in some traditional business banking products into more of a personal relationship. And I wonder, you know, in general, when looking to attract a younger deposit base, you know how important is it to have business oriented offerings, flexible business oriented offerings, you know. I don’t know how prevalent it is, but we I hear a lot I’m sure you do too about you know, side hustles and side gigs and people doing, you know, gig work and other stuff that might necessitate some type of more than a personal banking relationship. I think probably a lot of that data or a lot of that transactional volume has moved to, you know some of the non traditional apps like Venmo and Cash App and that sort of thing, and is there room and is it important for a bank to try to go after some of that volume if they want to really attract those younger depositors? Yeah, I think it would be impossible to say that it’s not important.

27:00 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
I just don’t feel like I’ve hit a place to have an answer for how they do that. So I’ll use a little bit of a personal anecdote here. I manage a couple rental properties, and so I do. I have a couple points, you know, done some reading and tried to decide if I need to have a business account or a personal account, and I’ve always ended up landing on personal account just because I haven’t seen a way to justify the fees.

Now I’m one of you know many, many people in my generation who are going to, like you said, be on this side, on this side hustle journey, and the data tells us that that number is only going up, and going up at a rapid clip. Actually, ever since the pandemic, we’ve normalized at a rate of new business formation that’s almost double what was considered the norm prior to that for about five to 10 years. So I think finding a way to become sticky with this, you know, very entrepreneurial generation could be a huge differentiator. I’m just I’m not sure what that is. I think back to my use case that I know well.

28:06 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Let me just ask you back to your use case. You obviously looked at it. I have a question. You obviously looked at it. We’re not here to be a personal finance advice show. But you know I’ve got business interests as well and my tax advisors you know and always encourage me strongly to keep my financial accounts separate and you know legal entities with their own accounts and I’m no stranger to the fact that sometimes that can be costly from a fee perspective. So, like what would it take for a bank to capture your business For you to say I’m going to take Wyatt Holdings LLC out of my personal account and start running it out of a business account?

28:55 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, that’s an easy question for me to answer. Automation around billing and tracking my expenses would be completely game changing. I mean, the thing about a side hustle is you don’t want it to completely take over your personal life, but the amount of hours that I spend tracking transactions and making sure that bills are getting paid for one property versus another out of the right account, it doesn’t feel like a side hustle. A lot of the time it feels like a second job.

And feels like a front hustle. If I could get my bank to spit out a report that I that I I mean imagine, if I even had some control over the format of that report. It’d save me hours a month and I would and I would pay fees for that.

29:36 – Fred Cadena (Host)
So for you, it’s not necessarily a race to the bottom to eliminate fees. It really is a. Am I getting the value for the fees that, when I look around the market, everybody seems to be charging?

29:50 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Oh, absolutely I would. I would say, If anything, yeah, I would say it’s a race to the top. On fees, how valuable can a bank be to its customer to justify those fees? And I think that the trend and I don’t have a data point off the top of my head to support this, but I think that the trend would be towards people who are willing to pay for those value added services. For my, I think, like for my cleaning woman who cleans up my Airbnb, I schedule that through an app and I was very hesitant at first because I think they charge I want to say 10 or 15%. But as soon as she got me to try it and I realized I no longer had to do any scheduling, I didn’t have to reconcile to make sure I’d paid her for everything at the end of the month. I now I’m saying charge me more, I’m happy to pay.

30:37 – Fred Cadena (Host)
You were sold, you were willing to pay that additional fee to get back that additional time.

30:43 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Oh, absolutely.

30:44 – Fred Cadena (Host)
No, I think that makes a lot of sense and I think you know a lot of what you’re saying about what banks can do to bridge that gap. I think that I think the answer is right there. I think the other thing is to make it easier for someone to not have to juggle a lot of different. You know logins a lot of different. You know experiences to be able to go between. You know, if you really want to capture my full relationship, don’t make it hard for me to do business, you know, with you. You know, make it, make, give me a one stop shop. Let me move easily between you know my various accounts and kind of understand the whole picture.

I want to put you on the spot a little bit because one of the things you mentioned early on when we talked was you know your idea of going into a branch is, you know it’s kind of an anithema to you. You don’t want to. You don’t want to go to a branch. You don’t really pull out cash. Is the branch dead, like you know? Looking forward 15 years, 20 years, 30 years, you know, are branches irrelevant or do you think that you know younger bank customers today will adopt branches and find uses for branches more and more as they get older, or do you think banks can evolve branches in a way that makes them relevant again?

32:08 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
It’s hard for me to imagine that, specifically for consumer banking, that branches will ever serve the same purpose that they did again. I don’t think that cash is going to become any more popular over time and I don’t think that, like coming into a place and being told that you don’t actually have the right paperwork to get done, what you need to do is going to continue to delight people, people who increasingly, don’t own printers. But I do know that most surveys you know millennials or younger will typically say that we don’t want to come into a branch on a regular basis and we’re happy to do a lot of research and become financially educated on online, but that when it comes to making important financial decisions, we as a generation really do value the advice of a trusted professional. Now, granted, that’s like a lot of people my age and older, you know, remember their parents losing the house, remember the 2008 financial crash? So that was a big thing when I was working in the mortgage space. It’s like people still want to sit down face to face and feel like they’re getting advice from someone they can trust. I do think that the branch, as a means of forming those relationships, may also may also change, I think the way we’ve we saw like a brief spike in the, in the prevalence of telemedicine, and I think that’s, you know, continuing to trend upwards of the slower rate, I think we’ll see we might see similar trends in the banking space, I do.

I also think, though, that the, the branch for business banking, has, or could have, a very bright future for those that are willing to capitalize on it.

I already mentioned, like that, that spike in new business formation that we’re considering to see it to play out at a higher dorm.

Well, a lot of these businesses are being formed remotely and they’re carried out completely online, and I think that aspiring entrepreneurs would value, say, having a meeting space that they could rent out, and their, their bank branch could serve as an excellent resource for, you know, entertaining investors for holding a, hosting a video conference, if they are typically working, you know, at home with kids around, or in a small apartment with roommates, as they form their, you know, digital consultancy or their, their, their shoe collector, shoe trading business, whatever that that may be, and then I also think that we’ll see more of kind of.

This is. This is less new, but bank branches include coffee shops and other like leisure experiences that just attract people as a way to to relax there. Actually, I spoke with a bank recently that purposely attached their newest branch to a chiropractor’s office and it’s increased foot traffic in the branch dramatically because people are stopping by the branch after they get their back cracked and it’s the chiropractors like a major customer up there. So I think more and more maybe not obvious, but synergistic partnerships like that will probably pop up.

34:59 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Well, I will say that you know now, now I’ve got a chiropractor subscription from one of the national chains, but when I when I used to see a more traditional chiropractor, I probably needed to go to the bank ahead of time just to get alone to pay the factor fees. But no, I like that. I will say I think the the coffee shop idea has jumped a shark. Like there’s a few that do it. Well, I don’t know that we need a bunch of dated environments with less than great coffee that you have to stop into. But I like the idea of creative combinations and I love that, you know, being a hub for for startups or for small businesses, being kind of a a stop gap between, like a full, you know, co-working but you know a place where you could drop in on a desk or, you know, rent a conference room and then also have some value add services. Like I think that that all is really exciting. So I think those are some good ideas.

I don’t think personally that the branch is dead. I think it’s going to evolve. I think you know you’re right. You know I remember as a kid my parents would go to the bank weekly and stand in a 20 minute line to, you know cash, a check or get some cash, or you know whatever, whatever the transaction of the day may make the mortgage payment, you know in person, you know kind of a thing I think. I think those days are long behind us, but I do have a lot of confidence that banks are going to find their own ways to evolve that, that space and make it relevant for the way people are transacting business today. So we’ll see. I think those are all good ideas.

I appreciate the time today, but one last question I want to ask is you know we’ve talked a lot about the importance of technology, the importance of making sure the experience is there. What would be your one key takeaway, your one piece of advice for a bank that knows they’re in a position where their technology, especially their consumer facing technology, is not keeping up and they know that they’re looking to innovate? What’s your, what’s your key piece of advice for them?

37:20 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Oh, my one piece of advice I think where I see this most successful is when executives are championing these initiatives or the sets of initiatives from the top down and there’s, you know, a very much a leadership level commitment to innovation, whether or not that means like installing a chief technology officer or chief innovation officer, or it’s just, you know, happens to be a CEO that is very passionate about this. People need to show up to work every day and know that that is something that the bank is investing in, and having that commitment from leadership will, of course, impact the way budgets are set, have a great impact on culture, and you know that should be also be reflected in KPIs and expectations for every level of staff down in a way that’s most sensible to their role.

38:07 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Yeah, I think that’s a great piece of advice. I think you definitely can never underscore the importance of executive leadership. Executive, you know modeling of the change and really kind of putting your actions, you know where your words are by investing in top talent to lead those initiatives. I think that’s fantastic. Well, I really appreciate the conversation today. I know this is a uber exciting and interesting topic for banks, especially as we’re in a bit of a deposit crunch, if you will. If banks are interested in reaching out, learning more, what’s the best way for them to reach you?

38:51 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Yeah, I’m very active on LinkedIn. My last name is spelled LICHT. You can find me if Wyatt licked on LinkedIn. I also write a blog that I post on Medium backslash Wyatt Steele, s-t-e-e-l-e that’s my middle name. Other than that, I’m constantly on the conference circuit, so if you’re a banker and you are at any banking convention from east to west coast, there’s a good chance you could bump into me there.

39:17 – Fred Cadena (Host)
You have any coming up between now and the end of the year?

39:20 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
I will be in Atlanta in about a week for the Georgia bankers’ tech talk, so it should be a great crowd and looking forward to checking out the new Community Banking Association headquarters in Atlanta as well that they’ve just opened.

39:36 – Fred Cadena (Host)
That sounds fantastic. Well, you’ll have to let me know how it goes. Really appreciate the time. Thanks for stopping by and we’ll talk again soon.

Thanks so much for having me, fred Great, talking to you and welcome back Back this week with us is Josh and Eric for Quicktakes. We’ve got some interesting topics today. The first one I want to jump into and I know we talk about the subject a lot Bloomberg article came out earlier this week talking about the golden age of cushy text. Jobs is over. Josh, I know you have a lot of opinions on this. Did you have a chance to check out that article?

40:14 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Yeah, I did. I did. You want my thoughts? I would love your thoughts. Okay, Look, I mean, I think it’s just. I think it’s a stupid article, Like most articles are stupid. I just think it’s a dumb article. Like Mark Benioff sits with a cushy green pillow and on it is embroidered. It’s like just like too much fluff. I wish people first of all wish everybody would write like Hemingway so let’s start there Right. Like I just hate all the fluff, the emotional fluff. Like who cares what pillow Mark Benioff has.

40:46 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Have you gone to a recipe site? These days You’ve got to scroll down like five pages of like talking about my grandmother’s farm and my dog and everything else, and then eventually, if you’re lucky, you get to the recipe.

40:59 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Yeah, if you don’t have six pop up videos playing the whole time. I had to, you know, to get through this one article. I was reading about AI the other day I had to suffer over and over and over again to turn off the redonkulous you know live life loud Jack Daniels ad. It’s like how did I even get targeted for that? Anyway, more to the point, do I think the cushy age of cushy tech jobs is over? Look, when we say that they’re cushy, we can’t be meaning all of them, right. I mean they’re cushy jobs in every industry they’re. Most jobs aren’t cushy at all. So I think it’s stupid one because it implies that you know, oh yeah, you just sign up and basically they were referencing.

You know, this guy wanted a job and he got a job selling software and before you knew it he was making $400,000. It’s like, okay, but what’s his resume? Like let’s, this guy wasn’t some. You know, maybe he was a 25 year old, he was brand new to the industry? I doubt it, because most sales people aren’t worth their salary. I’d say 50% of them aren’t. That’s why it’s got the highest turnover year over year and the lowest retention rate of all jobs out there in the entire country. So let’s start there.

42:18 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Well, so I think you know for context in the article when I read it it was a guy who was a college athlete and this has been the prototypical sales force hiring right. College athlete, you know, came out when you know, got a job. You know, thought he was going to work in finance. Didn’t work out, didn’t like the job. You know, heard about tech sales, got hired basically as a BDR or SDR. You know one. You know one promotion, one promotion, one promotion.

All of a sudden he’s got a book of business at Salesforce and we all know, I mean, they have base salaries. But if you’re making $400,000, that’s not a base salary. Right, that’s your commission, right, that’s. You know, that’s mostly commission and the. You know I think this ties into what we talked about last week with Salesforce starting to put you know their core products on the Amazon marketplace and letting people come in and just kind of self serve and buy them. The idea that you can go in with little experience as a salesperson, get a job where you’re selling something that is so exciting that you’re almost beating the customers off with a stick. Right, you know people are coming in excited to buy this hot new product.

43:29 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
You mean beating them back with a stick, fred, beating them back with it, okay, beating them back with a stick.

43:35 – Fred Cadena (Host)
And all of a sudden you, you know you’re making $400,000, you know, almost without trying, and like those days are gone right, like the easy sales have dried up in technology.

43:47 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
I think was the underlying Sure, but even so, even so, like, easy jobs always go away when the economy is suffering and, let’s face it, the tech you know the tech industry has suffered in the last 12 months, maybe a little bit longer than that, starting to do some. There’s signs of hope right now in the last month or so, which is very good from job standpoint, things like that. But we’ve got to remember and they do point it out in the article that they went out and hired I think 20, they said 30,000. It was about 27,000 people that they hired in 2022, I think 21, 22. Yeah, it’s like, yeah, like they over hired and so, yeah, you’re going to have like over firing. That’s just kind of part and parcel and it’s not cushy. Tech jobs are over.

The question is, are sales jobs in the tech sector, are cushy sales jobs in the tech sector for charismatic college athletes with experience in finance over? Because you know, there’s a certain like I’ve hired college athletes, starting line U of O, linebackers and stuff, and these guys are generally extremely hard workers, extremely committed, extremely competitive, and people like that guess what. They’re going to win. If you’re competitive, you’re going to win, probably more than you lose. You’re definitely going to win over the people who aren’t competitive.

I don’t think it’s a, you know, if there’s no cushy, you know the end of the cushy admin role, I think, is over. I think anybody in there. But, like you know, for Salesforce that’s a real thing, you know. Oh yeah, just go get this cert and get six months experience somewhere and now you’re making 80K. I mean that can happen, but as I know from talking to thousands of people, either in person or over my podcast, it’s not the case and highly competent people might have to wait a year, year and a half, to actually even get a break in there. So I don’t know if I buy it. I do think that all cushy jobs are less cushy when the economy is down, you know, and that you know rising tide floats all boats and a down tide is going to ground a few.

45:56 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
That’s all.

45:57 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
It’s not some big news and it’s not like it’s over, it’s like, oh, this is written in history. So it’s just a big flashy headline, I think.

46:04 – Fred Cadena (Host)
No, I hear you and I think I, I think the article is kind of silly, less for the green pillow but more for the fact that the characterizes jobs is cushy. I mean, I have, you know, in 10 years in the Salesforce ecosystem I have worked close to with co-sold deals with probably a hundred Salesforce AEs this is not hyperbole. And are there the ones here and there that kind of fell backwards into something easy and had a good year without really trying? Yeah, that’s the exception. You know, Tech sales is not easy. Enterprise sales is not easy. You’re building consensus with, you know, five, six, seven, eight, 10, 12 buyers to write what is not an insignificant. Check, right, If you’re bringing home 400K in Salesforce commissions, you’re selling multiple seven and eight figure deals and it’s not cushy, you know.

I think for people on the outside where you’d say, oh, you know, you didn’t have that much experience and you’re an athlete and you came in and a couple of years and making 400 grand, well, that must be easy. It’s not easy. They’re hardworking people. It’s, you know. Is it fun? Yeah, Is it rewarding? Absolutely. Is it stressful?

47:18 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Absolutely. Does it require more than 40 hours a week, way more Not cushy. Not cushy yeah. So yeah, it’s 400K. I think the article would have been better had it first defined what a cushy job means and for me.

I would to define a cushy job. It means that you’re getting overpaid for the amount of effort, energy and efficiency and work and stress involved right. Generally meaning there’s a lower barrier to entry and a very high payoff. And I don’t see anything easy about acquiring a job at Salesforce. I think they absolutely made it easier for one year and they paid the price right, but I don’t think it’s not an easy company to get hired at.

48:03 – Fred Cadena (Host)
No, you’re a spot on, Eric. What about all those cushy banking jobs? Yeah, there’s a ton of them. Any thoughts?

48:08 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
I was going to say I wish the bankers that I talked to there’s like not enough people to go around and they’re just having a hard time filling seats. So you know the cushy jobs. I think the challenge that the bankers have is they can’t fill some of the jobs and they’re not getting to the point where they’re comfortable with that remote capability and still having that. You’ve got to be in the office management by touching as opposed to by performance. So if I can touch you while you’re sitting in your seat, I know you’re working well. In reality that really is the case. So that’s a bigger challenge for the banking industry, especially the community banks that we predominantly work with.

48:52 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)

48:53 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
I know a cushy job.

48:55 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Let’s show this real quick. So I had a friend. Our kids played sports together. I was on the board for the football and I was on the field all the time. He was one of the assistant coaches and he had a cushy job. He did light bulb sales right, so they sold light bulbs and replaced light bulbs and all the high rises in downtown Portland.

49:12 – Fred Cadena (Host)
How many people does it take to sell light?

49:14 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
bulb Zero. But fortunately he got paid to do that. And this guy, nice guy, he’d go to work. He was a ham and egg or that’s your eight to five, five days a week, three or four weeks off full benefits. He’s probably making 100, 110 K or 120 K or whatever it was, and he hung out and watched baseball on the TV on his desk all day until he got a call and they’d say, hey, I need this many lights. You’d be like no problem, I need to enter the order. That’s a cushy job. That’s a real. That’s a for the amount of effort. That’s a real cushy job. I don’t know any Salesforce AEs that are still working at Salesforce that watch baseball on a TV and just answer phone calls and book orders every time the phone rings. So I think, I think they missed the mark on this.

50:00 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Yeah, 100%. I’m curious, eric, like in in your conversations with banks, like how do you help bank executives, you know, get over the hump and and embrace remote work?

50:15 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
I think the the key is identifying what the job needs, and a lot of times it’s the evolution of that position. You know, I’m talking with a bank right now that is absent a marketing person, and it’s a small bank in a rural community that likely isn’t going to get a rock star, someone young that wants to move there, probably isn’t even married, single, post college. That kind of gets it. But understand well, what, what is it that we need in this function, whether it’s I’ve heard it from marketing, I heard it from data analytics, I’ve heard it from credit and underwriting. You know the, the desired functions and the skills and then saying, are you realistically going to get somebody in this community that has that skill set? Cause if that person lives in your community and your small bank, you probably know them already, and if they’re not working for you, there’s a reason why. And if that person doesn’t live in your community, why are they not living here? What are the things that that demographic typically is going to be interested in? They’re already settled someplace else, they’ve got skill sets that are marketable and they can take that outside of the banking industry and work in another industry.

That’s going to vet value that, that skill set and so then saying, okay, well, how do you understand what they are and are not doing? And then how can you manage that? Maybe they need to come in a couple of times a month just be there to be part of the culture and to meet people, cause that’s, I think, an important thing, cause not everybody in the bank is going to be comfortable making relationships virtually. But at the end of the day, it’s shifting that evaluation and performance metric expectation and and getting them in. You know, the conversation went okay after I posed a few questions, but it’s still very much a. We want people to come here and we want somebody to move here to do the job that we’ve always done here, cause they need to be here to understand our culture. And my take on the marketing side is if you want this person to convey your culture digitally and you can’t even do that with your own employees, how is that individual going to be expected to do it with your digital audience?

52:20 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
And so so, eric, if you had, if you could just in one sentence say what hiring managers or executives, who are making these decisions, if you could just say one thing to them I mean you sort of just said it, but in one sentence about how they hire what. What is your like top?

52:36 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
Brett’s laughing cause. He knows I can’t do it in one sentence.

52:40 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
You’re going to have to.

52:41 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
There we go, I guess define the desired outcome of what that job is going to take to be successful. And then I mean it sounds really rudimentary.

52:55 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
And then that was parenthesized in the sentence, just so you know it’s still so what I was going to say.

53:01 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
So define what the desired outcome of that job performance is going to be. And then can you get somebody that has that skill set to move or to be physically present in your organization. And if that’s not possible, then it’s a. It’s a virtual opportunity or a fractional opportunity. I mean concept of a fractional CTO, a fractional CMO, a fractional CFO.

You might have to go outside of the traditional hiring and say we need a particular set of skill sets and maybe I’m not going to get that all from one person. So I get a little bit here, get a little bit here, get a little bit here, and you get someone that has that expertise that then gives themselves to a number of organizations. So you’re all getting a little piece. The individual that fractionalizes themselves is going to make a lot more money because they can take their skill set replicated across multiple industries. But it gives you the ability to get access to that expertise at a much lower cost or investment and and that might help the lower hour, likely a higher hourly cost, but a lower number of hours to perform high quality work and accomplish what you want.

And the outcome is what you need to focus on in the results and I think that’s a really difficult thing, I know I still get it Totally.

54:18 – Fred Cadena (Host)
And I know, I know Josh, no, I know, josh. You and I have talked about this a lot Jennifer was here or on your podcast. In regards to Salesforce hiring, you know it’s harder and harder in small markets to find those niche skill sets, and so I think I think it’s an important thing for employers in small markets to embrace is the, the relentless focus on the outcome and less focus on, you know, is somebody physically here? Can I, can I walk out of my office door and talk to them? You know? Or is slack good enough? Zoom good enough? Is coming into the office? You know, twice a quarter for for key meetings good enough? Yeah, I argue that.

54:59 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
And I’d add, slacks a tool, right, yeah, zoom the tool. It’s like saying is this is this hammer good enough? Well, it really depends on how you swing it right. And so the thing that people generally don’t do is force themselves to to generate a strong interest in something that they’re not already excited or into. That’s difficult. For instance, how do I manage remote employees effectively? How do I create a plan for that? And if I don’t know who does? And then, if they set it up, how closely can I monitor it and manage it? And how do I make sure the metrics are in there that we’re doing it, Are we doing surveys or like whatever? It is right, but when you get a, when there are bad managers and let’s all agree that there are bad managers out there, right, 100%, okay, and 50% of all managers are below average, right, and that’s how it works.

55:56 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
Wow, that’s for all my definitions.

55:59 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Yeah, I know, yeah, math with.

56:02 – Fred Cadena (Host)
I’m going to. I’m going to put that on a poster.

56:03 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I passed algebra two. Check me out. So if we know that half of all managers are the worst half of all managers and that that’s 50% of the managers out there, when you go remote you will become a worst manager, right it’s? It’s sort of like Vanessa on the show on on on my show talks about technology and she’s quoting someone else, but you know, technology just amplifies whatever you’ve got going on. Or what I loved is you know here’s a fun one what Steve Martin used to say about cocaine. He’s like, if you’re an, if you’re an A hole, it just makes you more of an A hole, and so it’s not good.

56:48 – Fred Cadena (Host)
I just watched plane, trains and automobiles last night Great movie For the first time in like five years. It was phenomenal.

56:53 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
That’s great, great movie. We watched killers of the killers, of the killer of the flower moon you know what?

56:59 – Wyatt Licht (Guest)
Oh, yeah, yeah.

57:00 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Yeah, I heard, that was good.

57:02 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Yeah, it’s good. It’s good it’s. I don’t think it’s best picture of the year, but I thought it was really good. I think Oppenheimer’s got it beat, but whatever All right now I’m going to talk to these guys.

57:10 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Come on, oppenheimer is the only only one that I’ve seen of the, of the, the, the big ones.

57:17 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
I want to see that mice drive and see that one yet. Anyway, the point being that bad management is bad management. Bad management through remote is going to generally isolate people even more, right, they’re going to get less of the warm fuzzies or they’re just not going to get management, and I’ve seen it with myself. There’s a learning curve to this stuff. Right, I’ve seen it where I’m not looking under the covers frequently enough, and because I’m not, because for five years I haven’t worked in an office with my entire team sitting there like in an open, in an open bullpen type environment, where I can hear someone saying stupid crap to a client or a candidate, like just stupid, stupid stuff.

You know, the best employees I had were made right. They came in with the right stuff college athlete stuff, right. So they came in with the right stuff. And then I can hear them saying stupid stuff and I can be like, oh wait, hold on. You know, just put them on mute, just say this, right. And then they’d say that and they’d look at me like, oh shit, that works. It’s like, of course it worked. Dude, I don’t get that opportunity anymore. So there has to be an extreme amount of trust and a lot of like. You’re not forced into management you. You have to make it a priority instead of just accidental manager when you’re on site.

58:32 – Fred Cadena (Host)
You know that’s a great point is it is a skill, and trust is key, and I think that makes a perfect segue to the next topic around trust. And, eric, I’m going to let you introduce it because I don’t think I’m going to do justice, but we wanted to dig in a little bit on Google’s amazing, awesome, blew everybody away, gemini, yeah.

58:53 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
So everybody’s waiting for Google to put a better player on the field as it relates to generative AI, and I don’t think anybody, at least when it was originally released, has been super impressed with Bard. It’s gotten better recently, but we’ve heard about Gemini coming and they delayed it. They had some big demos that they were going to be doing and Google decided, you know, based off of some language interpretation inconsistencies, you know, the last time they did a demo it basically screwed up what the Hubble telescope or something like that actually saw and you know, market cap dropped a billion dollars and the world, you know, was going to invert upon itself because Google failed in a demo. So they’ve been noticeably a little hesitant to release anything. Well then, they didn’t do the demos, they didn’t have the events, but then they dropped this video that everybody watched the video and they’re like holy crap, it was almost like the video that they dropped when they did the stage demo of the call on the beauty shop and doing the live appointment or calling the Chinese restaurant and ordering the food, and it was like back and forth and it was that level of awesomeness.

I watched the video and a number of my colleagues did, and we were impressed and then, just a few days later, TechCrunch broke that the demo was a stylized representation of what Gemini was going to be, and you can interpret. Does that mean it was completely made up? You know, if it was a stylized representation, what does that really mean? Is it? It really does do all of those things, but it had to be polished a little bit or it was a still a little buggy.

And my take is very much of disappointment because, as we mentioned in the pre-show, I want Google to come out guns of blazing. We’ve been a Google workspace shop since we’ve opened our doors back in 07. Very much a fan of Google. We do a ton of stuff with it, from SEO and advertising and analytics, so I want their stuff to be awesome and the fact that they’ve let everybody else jump in front of them. Gemini was like okay, you’ve got this immense universe of data that you’ve been collecting, you know, essentially helping the world index its information for 20 years, 18 years, whatever the case is 20, 25,.

01:01:20 – Fred Cadena (Host)
You clearly did not go to the Google homepage today, 25th anniversary of Google.

01:01:24 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
That’s okay. So 25 years, so 94, whatever, that is 95, I don’t know. But and the fact that that one is. Should they have just had a little sub note, stylized interpretation, or something along those lines? Should they even have done it? I mean, they felt like they had to because everybody’s given them pressure. But, you know, come out to say we’re not quite ready yet, it’s not done yet, or, at the end of the day, what makes them think that the world wouldn’t have figured this out? And did anybody think of what the discussion would be when the world discovered, after the fact that it ended up being a stylized representation of Gemini? And I just I would expect Google to be better than that. I don’t know, it’s my thought.

01:02:08 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Yeah, and I watched maybe a 40 minute. It was that video, but then there was some commentary before and after, and this is this is two days after it was released, so this information that it was, quote unquote, stylized was not yet out. I mean, if we look at it, I think the mistake is calling it a demo. Yeah, totally Right, instead of calling it an ad. And what are they trying to do here? Well, they’re trying to get people to buy more shares of Google and get excited because that’s highly profitable. And if I’d be curious if all the people who bought and then it spikes a little bit if they’re now wanting to sell because it’s stylized, I don’t think they will. So it like whatever it worked for them. You know, yeah, is there’s a little distrust. Well, for me, there’s no more distrust than like, oh, if I, you know, use this razor, I’m going to get that girl, kind of thing. Like it’s, it’s a silly thing, it’s an advertisement for them. Clearly it’s. It was of a high production value, right, but was it? Was it? To call it a demo was disingenuous, you know, and a mistake. And fighting out, having invested all that time watching it. And then, like, I mean, I had this team meeting on Monday, I was like, oh my God, guys, did you see this? And I’m all excited about it and talking about how AI is changing the face of recruiting and the face of Salesforce and what that means and what you know, what’s the world going to be in five years? And I can’t even imagine it right now because of, you know, we just had. It’s like we just we just got beta, you know, video tapes for the first time and like we’re all you know a year ago with AI and it’s like we have no idea that in 10 years or 15 years later or 20 years later, whatever, I guess it’s 20, 25 years later that you know you’re going to have all this computing power in your pocket and a and a better camera than you than that $700 SLR that I bought, you know, five years ago. So like we don’t really know where it’s going. It definitely got me pumped and it definitely is a little bit of a let down. Should we let them off the hook? I guess is the question yeah, let’s, let’s slap Google’s risk.

The thing that stood out for me this is just a this is kind of a random thought and I’ll shut up for a bit. The thing that kind of struck me is how they were using this example of creating a blog of, like some fake dogs visit to a fake skyline of New York city. I don’t know if you remember that part, but they show like, okay, google Gemini, whatever, like I’m a dog, this is the kind of dog I am and I want to describe my visit to New York city and it created images and it created a blog and all this stuff. And I think, okay, why do a lot of people blog?

Some people just want to share their thoughts, but so many of us blog not just to share helpful things to other people or give an opinion, or have insight or have a hobby. They do it for SEO, right, they do it to bump up in the rankings. So here you’ve got this massive platform, this Google platform, and it’s like here are all the tools so that you can sort of help leverage our weird algorithms to benefit you and use our products to leverage that. It’s like this feedback loop. Do you see what I mean? It’s like use all our tools so that you can rank higher in our thing, and it’s just like it’s all.

01:05:28 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
It’s all just a big place off of the other pre-session conversation slash rant that I had, that you all told me to shut up and save it for the show.

So here we go, wind me up the other discussion that I listened to this week was another podcast, the Marketing AI Show with Paul Rater and Mike Putt, and they made a good point and I think Paul was giving the example of doing a Google image search for a particular individual and the name escapes me but the result that came up through Google for an image search was an AI generated representation of the individual that he was looking for.

So you know, if you wanted to get a picture of Salvador Dali out of history, boom, all of a sudden. Now there’s one, two, 2300, 500 AI generated images that people have posted out that the algorithm is determined are Salvador Dali images because they’ve read the content, the algorithms index the information, the alt text, whatever the case is, and now those are populating image search, text search, video search, whatever it is. And at what point are we going to get to the point where all this information whether it’s the AI generated story of a dog that went to New York, that is completely made up and false ends up becoming one of the results in a Google search? And when are we going to get to the point where the search results are potentially untrustable because we don’t know if it’s real or if it’s AI generated and are?

01:07:02 – Fred Cadena (Host)
But here’s the thing, though the AI is, the AI search is, they’re all. The search results are already, you know, not trustable, right? Just because something is human generated doesn’t mean it’s accurate. You know, remember that old, remember that old Abraham Lincoln quote. You know, everything on the internet is true.

01:07:25 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
I still remember.

01:07:25 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Abraham Lincoln.

01:07:28 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
So, right.

01:07:31 – Fred Cadena (Host)
I mean, the internet is like anything that is that is crowdsourced. There’s going to be a level of human evaluation about whether or not you know what you’re looking at is accurate. I think, yeah, I get your point right. Like I look for a picture of Salvador Dali, I want an actual picture of Salvador Dali. I don’t want some AI generated picture of him, although I bet that was probably looks pretty cool. I want you know actually him. But I do think, like, in short order, google and others are going to come up with a way you know, to put into their search algorithm, a way to determine and signal this is, you know, a genuine image. This is AI generated, you know, based on image metadata and analysis, like that’s coming. And then it’s going to be an arms race, right, the AI is going to get better. The algorithm is to determine if it’s AI is going to get better, and so on and so forth. I’m not as concerned about that and I got to be honest with you.

Going back to your first point, you know, last week I was in Napa, in Sacramento, all week I had a client lunch on Friday and kind of a rush to the airport and I had a connection to make in Phoenix and it was kind of tight and I was a little hungry and not usually a fast food guy. But I remember watching a commercial for Wendy’s a couple of days earlier and I looked at that you know Dave’s biggie, what they call the sandwiches I was like, oh, that looks delicious, like it’s big and plump and it’s steaming and you know, the beef looks all juicy and the cheese is melting out the side. And I put an order in on the app as I was landing in Phoenix and I go to Wendy’s and I pick up my burger in the sack and I unwrap it and do you think it resembled the hamburger from the commercial in any way, shape or form?

01:09:17 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
It was shocking right.

01:09:20 – Fred Cadena (Host)
So I’m not sure why you’re surprised that the Gemini you know experience is any different than the commercial reel right.

01:09:28 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
And we talked about before, like yeah, it’s like, yeah, the Gemini reel being the commercial thing, and I’ll tell you too, it’s just, it’s like you can just put in, must be, you know, whatever original photos only. Like I’m sure you can prompt it to verify, it’s like. So, when you ran that search, did you then run a search that just said original photographs only, or period photographs, or photographs between 1930 and 1960, right, like things like that that you can do.

01:09:57 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
you know just basic bullions stuff, and those are all super valid points. So I don’t argue with any of that, but it’s.

01:10:08 – Fred Cadena (Host)
But I hear what you’re saying, like it is a bit of a sucker punch, right, like I get the idea of expecting more from certain brands. You know, and I’m, I’m I’m as disappointed, or maybe not disappointed, but I’m as shocked, I think, as anybody that after you know, really being the leader behind the scenes and AI for at least 20 of its 25 years, that Google seems to be stuck in the starting blocks, right, you know as much as I’m. I try not to be an open AI fan boy, you know, or even anthropic, like they are eating their lunch commercially right now and it’s, it’s shocking, it really. You know it’s a problem that Google has to solve. Google was definitely trying to solve the problem by having this flashy debut.

I don’t think anybody like, at the end of the day, any serious investor before they went and committed some money, went and actually tried out Gemini and said you know what? This is not quite what I saw on the demo reel. Right, like, just like, just like in Salesforce, right, you, you know the whether it’s a solution engineer or somebody at the SI you’re working with you know they’ve put together a great demo, but you’re going to go check out for yourself if that’s exactly what you’re getting out of the box, or not? I think the same thing with Google, right Like?

no, nobody went yeah, no, nobody went and bought 10,000 shares of Google based on the demo video. But it is it is shocking to me that they’re not doing better Like I want. I’m with you, eric. I want Google to do better, not necessarily morally better by not putting out a demo video, but I just want their results to be better.

01:11:48 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
I want the product to be better and maybe that’s at the heart of the reason why I got so bummed out about this, as I take a personal introspection at my passion and my feelings is, you know, at the end of the day, just I was expecting it to wow, be super cool and it was, but it was that. It was that fake Wendy’s burger and, believe me, I’ve seen the. The Baconator with the pretzel bun looks amazing, yep. So I’m going to be leery.

01:12:21 – Fred Cadena (Host)
If I order that now, I’ll be thinking of you when it’s, when it’s smashed at the bottom of a bag at the Phoenix airport at 830 on a Friday evening, it’s it’s not as phenomenal. How did it?

01:12:32 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
but how did it? I was going to say, how did it taste? Still tasty, I mean look if you’re going to go buy a car, right? So I’m on the Tesla, I’m on the Cybertruck list and I don’t think I’m going to get mine till 2025. Probably, you know, I’m like a quarter, a quarter in, you know it’s when you get it.

01:12:49 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Can I come over with a sledgehammer? Yeah, sure.

01:12:52 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Come on, you do that. Come over with a sledgehammer and a checkbook and that’s just it. Right? It’s like get the production model out. Let’s get the people that we trust you do reviews of things and watch it.

If I’m going to pick up a car or drop some serious coin on a car and I don’t even get to drive the thing first, I’m going to watch a bunch of videos and I’m going to I’m not just going to be like what are the 10 most awesome things about this? I want to see like real world, like what are the worst things about it? Where were you disappointed? And do a little bit of research. You know, every time I see a car ad and aren’t they all the same?

Right, I mean, it’s someone you know, a car is in the desert doing donuts and it’s like wait a second. Or it’s like coming around the corner and skidding. It’s like I thought this thing was all wheel drive. Why is it skidding? You know? It’s like oh yeah, they’re on sand because it looks cool and it kicks up dust and stuff. But really, you know it’s a Honda Accord. So like let’s, let’s calm down here. So it’s a period, like if you’re not doing, if you’re not going and watching Doug DeMuro or someone else review a high ticket item that you’re interested in purchasing sight unseen. Then there you go. And here’s another thing If it was that awesome right, wouldn’t they have shared, like, the date that it’s going to be actually released? And maybe I missed that, like this is available to the public starting when like when, right.

I think, I think now or this week maybe I mean, I look, you know, I looked a couple of days ago it wasn’t up. So when I think about all the hype that you get with like a MacBook right, All the hype of the new phone or whatever it’s like, yeah, I don’t know that I’m going to be dancing like that every time I listen to music, right, and I don’t know that I’m going to be like, you know, like they just speed everything up for commercials, demos or a little bit more real.

01:14:41 – Fred Cadena (Host)
I’ve seen you, bro. You’re going to be dancing every time with the iPod.

01:14:45 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Like I’m going to do the scene. Yeah, like this, right. So you know, just like, buyer beware, and that’s for all things, including free things. Beware, because you got to remember if you’re not the, if you’re not the, if you’re not paying for it, then you’re the product. Oh, absolutely.

01:15:02 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Totally, totally. I’d like to pivot, eric, into another thing you shared before the show the recent article interview in financial brand with Brett King just talking about how banks need to embrace radical change, you know, especially now when things are a little more turbulent, and one of the things he talked about was, you know, smart predictive analytics, ai, et cetera. But I’d love to get your take on the article, you know, do you think he made some good points, got it right, or are you a little bit of a different opinion on it?

01:15:37 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
So I’m a big fan of Brett King. I know he is always out there ahead of the curve. He’s made some predictions in bank 2.0 and 3.0 and some of his other books that hadn’t materialized yet. But I think a portion of what he talks about is always going to trickle down back into reality and not every bank is going to have to embrace radical evolution, because there are some that are just still going to live in their sleepy little towns and they’ll be able to get by. But with everything changing so fast and it kind of goes back to the first part of the conversation of finding the right talent to be able to do these sorts of things is leveraging the analytics that are available. And that’s going to be for a lot of institutions, getting their core providers that are the custodians and the controllers of all this info outside of its ecosystem into some platforms that are going to give it the ability to be able to analyze it and to look at it. And there’s not a lot of bankers that I have talked to that are confident that their information can be exported.

And some banks that I know of have gone to embracing the data lake concept where we’re going to take everything out of our FISER, jack Henry, csi, fis, whatever and we’re going to bring in information from our CRM Salesforce HubSpot you know Sharp Spring, you know whoever and we’re going to take our financial advisor data and we’re going to take our ATM data and online banking data and we’re going to put that in our own SQL database and we’re going to analyze it ourselves.

But that takes a lot of technical expertise and some money and commitment, some planning, so, but I think that’s going to be what it’s going to take in order to be able to stay up and to be able to provide the level of service that’s needed. And so this article just talks about a number of different things and being able to either understand and replicate or provide alternatives to some of these FinTech Challenger apps or partner with them to be able to use them and be okay that you know what. We’re not going to do all of that ourselves, but is it okay for our customers to use that app and we’re going to provide services and then we just give access to it and you know it talks about payments, talks about, you know, transparency of information and where stuff isn’t going. I still don’t have a real warm fuzzy. And there was another article that came out that talked about the number of employees that are using AI without senior management approval or awareness, and yeah, I think any of the answer is all of them.

Yeah, I mean, I’m one of the marketing directors who shall remain nameless said. You know, I grab my laptop, I go out to the parking lot and sit in my car and I pick up the Wi-Fi from the Starbucks or the hotel or whatever is next to them, and that’s how she goes in and then she has to email or text message the information to her to be able to then be able to use it. And so you know, just all of these different evolutionary things that are taking place, is the banking industry able to stay on top of it and to be able to embrace it? And even from just a basic blocking and tackling? I was on a call just before this with a bank and they want to measure conversion, which is I’ve clicked on an ad, I go to your website, I read about your awesome checking and I want to be able to open an account online, and the bank just simply wants to be able to have that online account opening funnel back into the advertising conversion funnel, and the platform that’s provided by the core provider doesn’t allow for analytics to be inserted inside of it and there’s no way to be able to tie A and B back together.

Again, I mean, this is 2023, almost 2024. And there are platforms that banks are using that are provided by some of these big companies that don’t even provide the basics conversion tracking and giving a bank a snowball’s chance to calculate ROI and so you’ve got these big banks that are doing it really, really well, that are doing their own technology and building all this stuff, and the community banks, which came to the rescue for most small businesses in the country when PPP was a thing. How do they stand to remain competitive? And I think those are the things that Brett was talking about, because a vast majority of the readers of the financial brand are these smaller community banks, I think, and the credit unions, financial services providers that want to be inspired to do what they can to remain competitive and viable and in existence for years to come. So those were my thoughts. What are your thoughts?

01:20:15 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Can I be the dumb guy in the room for a second? Absolutely.

01:20:19 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
Absolutely Okay, all right.

01:20:23 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
For the whole hour. What percentage of banking occurs at the level of smaller community banks? Small percentage Compared to the less than 10 percent.

01:20:37 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
I don’t know the numbers, but when you look at the amount of dollars on deposit at the big bank level versus small bank, it’s way, way skewed.

01:20:46 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Okay, fair enough, but do you have a sense of? Again, this is like I don’t know the answers and I’m not trying to trip you up, I’m just trying to understand. I’m trying to understand the impact to the general economy, smaller community banks not being able to have the innovation that larger banks can afford. And so what about for the clients that they serve, that average client that they serve, whatever the fireman, the teacher that’s getting their auto loan through them and runs their regular bank, things like that? And again, we live in a much more mobile world now than we used to, even 15 years ago with the advent of remote work. So, fred, do you bank out a community bank? I mean, you’re in Omaha, then you’re in Chicago, then you’re in Jupiter, then you’re in Tampa, then you’re in Napa, then you’re in San Diego. Am I getting most of these, minus Jupiter?

01:21:48 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Yeah, you’re getting most of them right. I mean I don’t and I don’t drink my own Kool-Aid on this, but I’ll take a stab at answering and Eric’s going to have a much better answer than me. But from a consumer perspective, one of the big values of community banks and credit unions is that they tend to and can operate kind of outside of the square peg approval process, whether it be for loans, for accounts, for doing business, and a lot of people that would not otherwise get approved for a car loan or a mortgage or a personal loan or a small business loan can go and have conversations with people actual conversations in a lot of times or even just go through programs to get approved where some of the larger institutions really just look at FICO or one of the other credit models and if you don’t fit in their approval box you don’t have a lot of options.

It might be a call of applications, yeah and it’s even more pronounced on the business side, like, if you’re a giant corporation, you can go negotiate with the super big banks. Right, they want, you know, they want the business. If you’re a mom and pop or if you’re even, you know a mid-sized company and you want access to capital, you know the big boys are not going to not going to negotiate with you. But you can go to a community bank, a regional bank, you know, in some cases, credit unions that do commercial business and get much better terms. And so, even though, like, if you look at deposits or even look at transaction volume, it’s not the lion’s share, it is critical, like we would. We would miss very quickly community banks and credit unions if they were not part of the financial system.

01:23:32 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Yeah, that’s super helpful for me. And while you were speaking it, it was like the perfect analogy is colleges right. When I applied to colleges, which was back in 1990. 89, 90s, when I was I guess I was applying in 89, you know the large schools, like you know Santa Cruz and you see Boulder, I mean it was like here’s your test score, here’s your grades, you made it or you didn’t right, whereas the private schools were like, well, we’re actually gonna really take time and read your essay. I know colleges are trying to do Larger universities are trying to do that, more of that, trying to adopt private school entry Requirements more closely, but they can’t do it.

So they have to have a certain cutoff right. That’s based on a couple of, a couple of numbers and you land on the charter, you don’t. So it sounds real similar. And yeah, so someone who couldn’t get into Berkeley might be able to get into Pepperdine, because the fact that there were whatever To sport, varsity, athlete and volunteered over here and did this, that the other thing like makes sense. Now I don’t want to comment too much on the college application world right now because I’m not an expert in it, but it sounds. It sounds a little bit like that to me, like when people don’t have as good a chance at one spot, they might have a better chance with a smaller community bank. So that just helps me because I’m banking dumb dumb.

01:24:48 – Fred Cadena (Host)
I think yeah, and not not at all. I mean, that’s the big one for me.

01:24:51 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
Eric, I know you’ve got more, more thoughts on this too well, it also relates to some of the other businesses and you know, if we go back to PPP or just general, you know trust and faith in Bending the rules a little bit and supporting an organization, a business or even an individual that wouldn’t be able to get that same level Of support in a bigger bank. A lot of it trickles down to minority women owned Rural. So you know, not a lot of big banks, you know they’re pulling out of the rural areas. So you know, population wise, density wise, still a vast majority of banking is done and will continue to be done by the large banks. It’s just the economies of scale that’s there. But there is that really important sector in the world, in our country, that they have to be served by that community bank and it’s seeing that gap get driven.

Just because I live in a rural area, I might still want to have all the tech, bells and whistles and cool things. So now, all of a sudden, you know, do I have to Go someplace where I’m banking with a larger institution that doesn’t have a physical presence? So I don’t have that convenience of going in with the cash deposit or whatever the case may be, your personal service to get the other stuff that I need and and and that, and that’s where Brett’s article is just saying community banks and trickle down economics and Moore’s law and the diminishing cost of technology is going to make that possible because things are becoming less expensive. But being able to embrace that culturally, understand how you can implement it, do you have the right employees that are able to support it? It’s. It’s just really presented a lot of food for thought like okay, are we ready for this bankers in 2024, or is it? Nope, get in your car and go out in the parking lot to get on Chet-CpT and Don’t get.

01:26:48 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
What did you think about the part in the article where they talked about countries in Latin America are actually ahead of the curve from America, from the United States, because of regulation?

01:26:58 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
I think regulation plays into it, certainly because we’ve got a lot of things that we’re required to do that other countries don’t. I think there’s. If you look at Europe and Latin America, they’ve been ahead of us in payment technology. You know I’ve got friends through the WSI network because we’re global. I talked to friends that are. You know they laugh when they hear about you know our Desired to have. You know the Fed now platform to be able to support open payments across. They’re like I can send my buddy money in Italy from the UK, like I’ve been able to do that for like 10 years. I don’t know where the rocket science is, and you know.

So there’s just a lot and you know their environment probably has made it easy. But you know stored value and chip cards, pin transactions versus signature based transactions All of those things are elements that I know Brett’s talked about because he does a lot in China and Asia and In Europe and he’s he’s written about that a number of times about just how antiquated some of those Capabilities are, and he touched on payments and the infrastructure in the United States of getting money from A to B. So by regulations really getting worse, they’re not getting better. So that’s another and we see WSI.

01:28:14 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Are you referring to the marketing? Yeah, yeah, that’s what I’m part of.

01:28:18 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
Okay, oh, our agency has been WSI partners since oh seven.

01:28:22 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Yeah, man, they’ve, they’ve, they have pots. I used to run on the creative group and and Robert have technology for Portland and southern Washington and I watched, in 10 years, wsi just come in and scoop up all my clients, like all of them. They just came right in and I think I think people got to retire and had a nice life because they did. But I was like, is that this happening?

01:28:44 – Fred Cadena (Host)
I was saying and to build on what you’re saying here, like I think you know regulation, part of what I see, my role and I’m assuming you do as well is Helping bankers that tend to be relatively conservative out of the box. You know, especially the folks that sit in in compliance and regulatory. You know, understand where the lines are and understand the right ways to. You know to implement some of the technology and navigate through what are always increasing and complicated overlapping regulations. When you think of, you know you know three, four, five Federal agencies plus state, plus even. You know You’ve got to comply with, with even non financial regulations. Like you know the California Privacy Act and things like that.

There’s a lot of things that banks have to take into account and and even the people that are professionals Inside the bank, they don’t necessarily have that broader view of what others are doing, what others industries are doing. You know how they could potentially stay okay within the rulebook, but still, like, keep up with the pace of what customers are expecting because guess what? You know customers Want to be able to send money easily to other places too. Right, like that’s the customer expectation and and you shouldn’t have to be in a big bank to do right for sure right.

Well, this has been phenomenal, as always. Gentlemen, just To recap here we’re in the middle of December. We haven’t talked about it yet, but I’m hoping we’ll get one more quick takes in for our final episode of the year. But whether we do or don’t, what are your big plans for the holidays?

01:30:21 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
All right, well, I’ll go first and we might want to relabel this long takes. Yeah, yeah, bald facial hair.

01:30:37 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
Yeah, we’re talking about yeah, there you go.

01:30:39 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Yeah, that’ll be good, that’ll be good. None of us will have to comb our hair.

01:30:44 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Just just our facial hair.

01:30:46 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
Yeah, yeah, I’m gonna a mustache today. I’m excited.

01:30:52 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
I love that beard man, it was awesome. So we’ve got, we’ve got. We’ve got five kids between Casey and I, and three of them are coming for Christmas. We just had one of them here over Thanksgiving and and another one not closer to the beginning of the summer. He’s a little, you know, he’s in his late 20s already, so it’s a little bit harder to get everybody out once. But so we’ve got Charlie and Oliver, my two sons. They’re coming on Wednesday, they’ll be here for a week, and then Naya is coming on that Sunday and she’ll be here for a week, and then my father and a stepmom they’re gonna come down just for Christmas day. And, yeah, we’re just gonna go out on the boat a couple times and eat some good food and enjoy some nice weather.

01:31:32 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
That sounds phenomenal. I hope is to get on the lake, but it’s not gonna be on a boat. I’ve got the studded tires ready to go on my fat bike, but we’ve gotten a warm patch of weather and Now we’ve just got some open water with ice shifting and loading up on people’s shores based off of which direction the wind is blowing. So I hope all of my Houghton Lake friends have got their stuff pushed back far enough, because mother nature can be a Little bit of a unrelenting person. I was gonna use the B word, but I want to keep it friendly, so she’s just.

01:32:08 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Screw you, you know yeah so, so do you, you go out on the lake, say, let me say just, but like just to ride a bike, or are you like biking out to like an ice house and like the?

01:32:22 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
fisherman look at me like I’m nuts and I look at the fisherman like they’re nuts and we just have this. We agree to disagree. Oh yeah, I, I, I enjoy fat biking in the winter and getting out, and usually before we get a ton of snow and the snowmobiles take over, we usually get a really nice, good, hard pack and it makes it really enjoyable to get out there and Spend some time on the lake. So, as far as Christmas is go, parental units are in Florida so they’ll be sending pictures. We’ll probably do a zoom Christmas opening with them, with all the stuff we’re sending them from Amazon and.

Just a couple of little things here and there, and we’re getting the virtual team to Come in in person for a dinner and Grand Rapids, michigan, one evening and we’ll physically be present Everybody. And we’ll get the annual Team ussy, which is no longer called a selfie, thanks to Ted Lasso, but we’ll get that picture and it’ll be good to see everyone Hopefully get a little downtime. What about you, fred?

01:33:22 – Fred Cadena (Host)
No, that sounds phenomenal. I was gonna say I I like fat biking year-round, but I just have a hybrid. So but since I’m fat, it’s easy, to easy, to enjoy that year round. I know, I was gonna say for me.

To the rim shot, but up bump. I’m Happily done with travel, where we’re recording this on the 12th drops on the 14th. I will not be in New York for world tour on the 14th. I expect to be home the rest of the year, which is nice, low-key Christmas, no big plans. I do have hosting a small get-together you know friends and whatnot this Saturday, which is fantastic, and then next week I’m the the slack community group leader here in Omaha and I’m hosting a Slack holiday party next Tuesday. So week from today. So if you’re in Omaha or near Omaha, feel free to come out.

01:34:17 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
But is that a Christmas party on slack or it’s a Christmas party for slack in person?

01:34:22 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Because I’m just curious it is, it is for, it is for slack and and and I’m Co-hosting it with with a couple of the Salesforce groups around here. So if you’re slacky or Salesforcey, it’s in person at Modus, at Modus co-working in Omaha, but it’s not. It’s not on slack I it’s hard, it’s hard to drink.

01:34:42 – Eric Cook (Co-host)
Oh, I’m just gonna say maybe that was a plug-in that I missed or something, I don’t know.

01:34:49 – Fred Cadena (Host)
That is not an app that is on the app store yet. So, no, it’ll be. It’ll be cool, it’ll be low-key, but, gentlemen, great as always and look forward to chatting next time.

01:35:00 – Josh Matthews (Co-host)
Absolutely. Guys have a great week and thanks for everything everyone.

01:35:07 – Fred Cadena (Host)
Well, everyone, we hope you enjoyed episode 18 of banking on disruption. Don’t forget you can find show notes and a full transcript of the show on our website, New episodes drop every other Thursday, so we’ll see you in two weeks and, in the meantime, don’t forget to follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram at at banking on disruption. Until next time, this is Fred Cadena, wishing you success in your digital pursuits.

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